In our episode on interviewing, we converse about the good and bad interviews we have had (from the interviewee perspective). We then move on to what we look for when we're conducting interviews and some of the things we wish that people would change about the interview process (take home projects, whiteboards, and questions related to the theoretical part of computer science). We also cover how we prepare for interviews and answers we prepare for commonly asked questions.
References
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Toran Billups - 00:07 - You are listening to Developing Fatigue. I am Toran and today I'll be joined by my cohost, Kris Van Houten and Brandon Williamss. Today on the show we're going to be talking about interviewing the good, the bad, and the ugly. Maybe to get us started here. Kris, have you ever been in a bad interview?
Kris Van Houten - 00:20 - Oh, you're supposed to ask me how to define an interview. That's my job. Is at the opening of this, of this whole podcast.
Brandon Williams - 00:28 - Let me just ask to interview Kris, would you define what is an interview? What is interviewing?
Kris Van Houten - 00:34 - It's a conversation with people that have more money than you where you're trying to ask them to give you some of their money in exchange for your services.
Toran Billups - 00:42 - Not Bad. It's actually thought you were going to bomb that.
Kris Van Houten - 00:48 - So your question is, have I ever had a bad interview, right?
Toran Billups - 00:52 - I'm guessing. No, I mean Kris Van Houten, right?
Kris Van Houten - 00:55 - Let's see. Actually one of my first. So I got started doing website design. That's like my first, uh, Internet ish job. And when I decided I wanted to leave that company because they didn't want to pay me anymore, I interviewed for this company up and up in Dayton, Ohio and they're a job listing was all about like, hey, like if you know, a PHP, which was what I knew it back then, and cCSS like, you're perfect for the job and yada yada yada. And so I went on site, did an interview and then they had an I take a half day off so I could actually drive up there and work with them for a half day and, and that so that they sit down with me for like a, a coding challenge kind of thing. And what they asked me to do is actually build in, build a page, a small app, what do you want to call it, using.net. And I'm like, I don't, I don't do.net. I'm a, I'm a PHP developer.
Kris Van Houten - 01:54 - Like that's all I know right now. It's like, well, well you can, you can just roll with it and figure it out. I'm like, no, no, I can't. I'm not that. I'm not that level yet. And so basically like wasted a half day a of my pto or my boss. I think he knew what I was already doing, interviewing for different jobs, but basically like. Yeah.
Toran Billups - 02:14 - Is that when you came in with a suit on?
Kris Van Houten - 02:18 - No, I, I changed, uh, at a Starbucks bathroom. So,
Toran Billups - 02:22 - no. Are you for real?
Kris Van Houten - 02:23 - Yeah, yeah man. Stories of the early days, but yelling horrible interview where it's like, what they put on the job listing was totally different than what they expected of me. And there was like, you got you, you can do it. And I was like, no, I, I don't know this technology and I'm not going to pretend that I do. Uh, and yeah, that, that just didn't end well. So, um, that's my horse to water but Toran. What do you guys, you probably have something way better than that.
Toran Billups - 02:50 - Oh Man. Now I want to highlight a horror story on just how horrible I interview. I did it. I was doing a take home. So you know what, we'll talk the types later. But this particular exercise, being a take home means the company didn't really want to talk to me, they just wanted to give me this exercise to go build an APP. And so I worked on this APP, but they had a very interesting way to kick this off. You had to actually let them know when you're going to start and then they would email you and you had like 90 minutes to get as far as you could and then you had to email them the final project. Yeah. So it was actually really intense. And to make matters worse, I did the um, ever amateur thing and I sort of kicked the whole interview off by getting a hold of someone I knew and inside the company privately. So I think there was a lot of pressure, like, Oh yeah, we know Toran's going to do great and I did not do great. The actual like project, this is kind of like an early, uh, ember project and I remember trying to stand everything up just like the infrastructure to get all the testing going within 90 minutes.
Toran Billups - 03:50 - And for some reason I just bombed. Getting even one failing test stood up so I didn't even really work on the APP, but I told myself I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to stay the course, you know, this is who I am, love it or hate it. And the problem was when they saw their question was like, well, we know you're big into testing, but like you didn't get anything done. I was like, I know. I was kinda hoping to portray that, you know, if I couldn't get the builds stood up, I didn't really want to work on it to begin with. And they were like, Eh, yeah, that didn't come through. So I did not get that job.
Kris Van Houten - 04:22 - What about you, Brandon? You got anything you want to share as far as like a horror story from your past interviews?
Brandon Williams - 04:27 - Yeah. So, uh, one of my interviews I went into it and fresh out of college, um, didn't have any real world experience. So I was just happy to have a job interview. But I was sitting in there and he's like, Oh yeah, you're, you're just graduating and said, yep, okay, well we can teach you what you need to know. You're just going to be an analyst. You're going to be running sequel reports and generating spreadsheets. So on, so forth dream. Oh man, it was awesome. But during the interview, he, he stopped talking to me and answered his phone four times because he, he was quote unquote so busy that he had to answer his phone so he would just completely disconnect for me, answer work emails and I know that it was a stressful time and that they were quote unquote so busy. But that just, that left a really bad taste in my mouth. I took that job, but I was like, how
Kris Van Houten - 05:22 - you took that job too?
Brandon Williams - 05:24 - I didn't have anything else. So I took that. But immediately news, like I went back and told my wife, I'm so I'm going to take this, but we're going to be looking for another job.
Kris Van Houten - 05:34 - Lifestyle, job hunting.
Brandon Williams - 05:36 - Even though I accepted this one. So.
Toran Billups - 05:40 - And I can imagine that that conversation with your wife has probably rather tough because in the middle of it, I'm sure you've got a phone call from work because you were so busy. Yeah. Just had to say maybe my sarcasm is not coming. Yes, I follow you. I follow you.
Brandon Williams - 05:56 - Yeah. He's like, so can you start like right now? No, it's not quite that bad, but it was, yeah, it was like how can, how soon can you start? So, um, it was,
Toran Billups - 06:06 - we can't be all bad. Right? I'm sure you guys have had some interesting or good interviews. So Kris, something good.
Kris Van Houten - 06:13 - Yeah. So I'd actually say the interview process for where I work now was actually probably my, probably my favorite experience because they didn't give me a take home project to spend, you know, 15 or 20 hours to put something together. They didn't pull up a whiteboard is like, can you solve this bubble sort equation. And like it was nothing like that. But what I actually really valued was that I'm, one of the VPs of the company at the time came into the, into the, the room. And I had, prior to this I'd had conversations with two different groups of people and it was mainly like, do I fit the culture here? Which, which I really liked him. Yeah, we were talking about code, making sure you're like, yeah, like I know amber. Yeah, I know these tools. Uh, but then like the last part was actually like with the bosses and this guy walks in, he's like, yeah, so I was looking through your good whoa profile and I came across this project and just want to talk through a couple of things that you did here and like, and that was something that I was just like floored by because he's showing me something.
Kris Van Houten - 07:13 - I've recently done something I already know and something I can just kind of walk through what I was thinking, what was going on at the time and why I saw it this particular way. And, and to me like that was probably my favorite interviewing experience, a contrast to some of the others I'd had. Whereas it's like, okay, like they want, they want me to show them what I'm working on now. The things I'm excited about, the things I'm a I'm tinkering with and that was just really, I felt, I guess I respect that as the only word that comes to mind, but as I felt valued and that they actually wanted to see what I'm doing. But uh, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. What about you Toran?
Toran Billups - 07:52 - Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, my best pairing or my best program experience, their Freudian slip was actually pairing a on the way in and it was that at this company that Brandon and I worked together years ago. And what I liked about it was, you know, there was, of course no white board or any of the other take home scary stuff. Um, there was instead the scariest, which was somebody else being like, hey, why don't you just sit down here and we'll write code together for the next hour. And man, I've, I just like panicked, you know, I am internally, I was very, very scared. But what I thought was kind of interesting is the person running the interview was like, Oh, I know you don't know python. That's cool. Uh, we're just gonna work through this little problem together and the fact that you don't know it is not what I'm looking for or how quickly you learn the syntax, just trying to figure out how you think through this problem. And I remember just like he did such a good job making me feel really comfortable and by the end of it I was just like, wow, I actually really want to work here now because I get to work with this guy
Toran Billups - 08:51 - and shout out to Matt from his friend of the show, if want to call it that. He a senior Dev ofBbrandon and i's from way back when. And Matt was really, really great. Um, I kind of mentoring and, and making us feel confident to grow. And I felt that as part of the interview, which made me even more excited to be a part of it. So lucky enough I got that job. So
Brandon Williams - 09:11 - I guess it's a couple of my good experiences with interviewing has been around people looking for that culture fit. So we quickly established that I know technology and I may not know that technology, but I can learn that technology. And I remember one interview was actually, um, there was a park outside the office and we just walked around for 30 to 45 minutes and just talked about life, talked about about the type of person that I am that I want to be. Um, he talked to, he shared some of his stories and his, his life. And so we got to know each other. I'm a little bit more on a personal level. And so I walked away from that interview thinking I just want to work with this person because he's, he's just a good person. Like it was. I just wanted to spend more time with them. And so that was really cool that, that the culture was there.
Brandon Williams - 10:11 - Um, so just that, that, um, another place that I worked was that I've, I've worked at is really big on culture and they do a lot of interviews to make sure that you, you are a good fit for the culture that you, um, there is a meshing of the, of your personality with the team and with the company. So
Kris Van Houten - 10:36 - that's awesome man. Very cool. Very cool. So I think one thing we should probably talk about a little bit is like how we go about prepping for interviews if he's, you know, in the past when we've interviewed for previous jobs. So I wasn't sure. I don't know, Brandon, if you have anything you'd like to share about how you either recommend people prep for interviews or how you in the past I've have a prep for interviews that you found, a things that you've done that you've found to be beneficial.
Brandon Williams - 11:02 - Yeah. So, um, one of the, some of these techniques I've learned actually from my business courses in college, they say research the company, go look up their financials, do that kind of stuff. Um, I don't do all that stuff now. I'm, or I haven't recently. I did right out of college. I thought that was really important. But then I learned that there's other things that I can do besides just the financials that I was looking for. So when I would go interview for a new position at this company, I would say, well, what are they currently hiring for? What technologies are they looking for 'em at all layers? What are the databases they're using? What are the, um, what's the front end technologies are using? What does the back end technologies they're using, you know, where do I fit into that? Um, and just try and understand, you know, they, they often will say on there, sometimes they'll say a senior engineer has this years of experience. So they want, they want that kind of, um, you know, that's, that's helpful.
Brandon Williams - 11:59 - Some bigger companies just kind of say that and it's based just on how many years you've been doing the job. Um, I also, one of the companies I interviewed for had a blog about their technology choices, a tech blog in. So I got to read a lot about the architecture that they have, the decisions for the technology choices they've made. Um, so that was, that was really helpful. So I could go in and say, Hey, I don't know this, I do know this, um, maybe I could help you guys out in this area type of a thing and I can come and provide value immediately.
Kris Van Houten - 12:32 - Very cool. Yeah, I think, um, when I came to interview for my current job, like I was super nervous I was going to fly me down to Austin to interview on site and at the time I was living in Cincinnati, Ohio. Like it just felt like a really big deal and I was super nervous and you know, never had an interview set up like this. And so I think like they had initially talked to me on a Wednesday or Thursday and I was flying down like on a Tuesday, the next week between, like that Thursday or whatever it was. And that Tuesday I'd read like two of the, uh, uh, the, you don't know js books because it's like I need to cram and to prep. And, you know, I'm sitting in the parking lot or the company before I walk in for my interview and I'm like, rehearsing answers to questions as afraid they might ask that. I want to make sure I can give a clear,
Toran Billups - 13:20 - That's the best part is just like sitting there
Kris Van Houten - 13:23 - like you and you're just sweating like sweat stains on your shirt. And it's like, it's more of a
Toran Billups - 13:23 - Starbucks bathroom dude.
Kris Van Houten - 13:32 - But, but yeah, and it's like, and I got to the interview and they didn't ask a single question about anything. I had been cramming for over the last, you know, four or five days. Uh, but the things that really did come in handy, you know, a lot to what you were saying, Brandon is, you know, doing a little bit of research on a company like looking up the company on glassdoor to see if there's any employees who have left feedback about the company. In my case, what I actually did and I wasn't, you don't work for this company anymore. Toran. So you're not gonna get in trouble. But like, I, um, I, when they told me that Toran had worked for this company, I actually reached out to Toran and that was my first conversation ever, was like, Hey, I heard you work at this company. Would you mind giving me some of your feedback about whether or not you like working there and Toran responds, like just call me. And I'm like, oh, uh, okay. And so him and I had this like 45 minute phone call about like whether or not I should come and work at this company and um, you know, all these details for, for the, the mysteries. But um,
Toran Billups - 14:34 - yeah, to put it mildly. I was having a bad day. I believe that's the summary.
Kris Van Houten - 14:40 - Yeah. I was actually driving to a date with my wife and she was in the passenger seat of the car and I'm like talking to a tour and I'm like, hey, it's Toran Billups you don't know who this guy is, but this is kind of cool. And she's like, he sounds upset. I'm like, no, that's good. But anyways, so like this Ashley gave me questions to ask while I was on site. And those actually did come in handy, uh, and again, all that cramming I did that I would have given like nervous answers to had they been asked about code where the things that I never even had to touch. And so, uh, yeah, focus on realizing whether or not this is a company you want to work for because realize that has to be yes on both sides. And I think that's something that people forget a lot of times is like, just please give me a job, please give me a job. But then you'll accept the job and realize like this is the worst place in the world to work and I want to leave immediately. Um, and so, you know, you want to find out as much about the company as possible to make sure that this is a place you could see yourself growing and standing yet, uh, in for at least a little while. So I guess I just,
Toran Billups - 15:43 - yeah, my, my only pro tip for interviewing is don't you guys were giving kind of the earlier times in your career, which, which is great. You know, we have people on the spectrum from, you know, new programmers to, you know, very experienced, but I found that you should or you can, as you get a little bit more experience eventually just tap your network and then there's really not much of an interview at all. In fact, I haven't really interviewed in a long time. So, you know, I've gone into a room and I think we labelled it in some email. Oh, interview. And I was like, yeah, I know, I know what that is. That's me interviewing you all. And I will decide if I want to come work there. And that's actually how it felt. You know, it should be a two way street and I will you talk about that a lot Kris. Um, so I hope, I hope folks know that during the interview, especially as you get more than that first job or two under your belt, that you, you start to look at it as the reverse interview a little bit. Um, because it truly is, it's got to be a two way street.
Toran Billups - 16:38 - And one of the things I thought we could, you know, share as we kinda wrap up is a little bit more about, you know, us personally, so Brandon and Kris and I, you know, if you happen to come into an interview room with one of us, you know, what are the things that we feel make for a successful interview and how do we identify a really good candidate, somebody that we want to work with. So back in my scenario when I kind of shared this experience where I actually ended the interview even more excited and more interested to work there, how do we replicate experiences like that? And I thought, Kris, you're pretty opinionated guy from time to time about the interview. So why don't you want to jump us off man, what are you looking for in candidates who come in?
Kris Van Houten - 17:21 - Well, I had this huge list of really complicated problems I want them to solve in like five minutes flat. If they can't do what they're just kicked out the door. Just, I'm just kidding. But um, and
Brandon Williams - 17:32 - they have to do it all on a Whiteboard, right?
Kris Van Houten - 17:34 - Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And half the markers were actually dried out. So yeah, I honestly, I, there's been times I've been called on to do an interview is, and I've been said like, hey, this is a technical interview, so, you know, throw some, throw some coat at them and see how they handle it. And I just refused to do that. Honestly, I don't, I, I was insubordinate and I'm sorry to my employer when I, for the Times I did that, but because honestly, like that's not something I use to gauge whether or not someone's knows how to code or is good at learning how to code or as would be a good fit for my team or my company. Uh, you know, I can just as easily sit back and listen to you talk about code and get a good feeling for whether or not you know, whether you know, get a good feel for whether or not you know, you're talking about.
Kris Van Houten - 18:28 - And, you know, just by your confidence and how you talk, the things you're talking about, the words that you're saying and the things that you are excited about, the things that you kind of sinking ground within your spare time. You know, one of the things I like to ask a in every single interview I do is, you know, everybody kind of has those areas that they gravitate towards Encode a do new work in Dev ops. I'm really, you know, a big fan of things like accessibility and CSS and design and stuff like that to orange look big on testing and making sure things are, are, are, are stable and, and uh, improving the workflow and stuff like that. And, and so I'm really curious like what are the things that this person gravitates towards and a, is that stuff that, you know, we need at the company or is there a lack of that? Is there a, do we need more people? And usually the answer is yes, but I just want to see like, are they, do they enjoy code so much that they actually have those areas penned out a for themselves at that, at that point in time,
Kris Van Houten - 19:28 - and so like that's really the kind of things that I'm looking at. And also, you know, I've, I, I hesitate to say this, but it is something I do take into consideration is like, um, are they taking this seriously? And what I mean by that is, you know, I did an interview recently where a, it was a video interview and the person basically was on the call and their pajamas and I'm like, like, I understand you can do that in a lot of software developers work in their tee shirts and their gym shorts at home. Like, that's cool, whatever. I have my days. But it's like, um, in your interview, take it seriously. Um, wear a dress shirt, wear a tie, wear a suit if you got one. And, you know, because I seen those guys come into a company is like basically in their interview wearing shorts and a tee shirt and flip flops. I'm like, do you like take it seriously?
Kris Van Houten - 20:23 - Um, even though you might still get hired, if you're good enough, you know, you might still get hired at the company if you come in dressed like that. Take it seriously because this is, you're a professional. This is a career. Uh, and you know, I remember even going to interview for like fast food joints back in the day before I was ever in Dakota and he went back. I still dress nice for those interviews and so it's just a matter of, you know, take it seriously. And if you don't do that, then that's actually sends a lot of signals to me is to like, um, you know, whether or not I think you'd be a good fit for the team. And s
Brandon Williams - 20:56 - going back to the prep a little bit here, I'm including that in what I look for in a candidate. As I would prep for interviews, I would think of examples or stories of work that I had done where I had been successful and talk about the journey through that process to get to that successful end result. And then I'd also think of a story where maybe I didn't succeed and what did I learn during that process and talk about that journey. I'm also. So those are, those are a couple of examples. When I interview people, I try and bring out some of those stories to try and ask them, hey, tell me about something that you're really proud of, something that you've done that went really well. Um, tell me about something that didn't go so well. You know, what did you, what did you learn from that experience? Um, I'm also Toran and I've talked about this and I think even Kris, I think we've talked about it on this, uh, just hanging out, but the t shaped person.
Brandon Williams - 21:51 - So how wide do they go up at the top, but then do they go down and so we call it like a multiple t shaped person. Do they go down deep into technology or in a, in a concept
Toran Billups - 22:05 - Like the m shaped person. Like deep.
Brandon Williams - 22:10 - Yeah, the m shape person. There we go.
Toran Billups - 22:11 - I literally doing like, yeah, I'm drawing an m in the air,
Brandon Williams - 22:18 - but just looking at like, can they go deep in one area? Can they go deep into areas like are there multiple areas where they can go deep? And so when we're interviewing I don't even really care. I mean I do a little bit, but do, I don't really care what if they don't use the technologies that we use where I'm interviewing, um, but I want to know that the technologies that they do use right now that they can go deep, that they can talk to me about the times where man, something wasn't working. I had to drive down into this framework. I had to troubleshoot, had to figure out what was wrong or you know, whatever it is. And so that's, that's Kinda what I'm looking for is that they know how to. And that, that depends, you know, that helps differentiate like what kind of a level I'm getting at. Like is it, do they have five years? Somebody with five years of experience could come in and not have very many deep areas. Then somebody else could come in with five years of experience and be like, man, I've done a lot of stuff and I've gone deep in several areas and so it just.
Brandon Williams - 23:18 - Is it the same year five times or is it five different years? So that just comparing and contrasting those two different types of people,
Toran Billups - 23:27 - that's cool. Certainly helps if they've read so good, they can't ignore you for real. So yeah, one of the things like I just want to drill in on what you said Brandon is, you know, kind of having some context about younger engineer or more experienced engineer because those are two different interviews and certainly have two different outcomes. The first one, you know, this is someone who's very young. I traditionally ask the very generic question you guys mentioned, which is like, no, tell me about the last project you were on or tell me about something he did in college. You know, to kind of get them talking because like Kris mentioned, you kind of want to, you want to have a thread of something they're really passionate about and then be able to pull on that a little bit. Um, and usually from there you get a little get to know a little bit more about that person. If it's a more experienced engineer. I actually have a whole different set of questions. In fact, I almost never kind of like Kris was talking about in his interview. I don't ever ask about anything technical. My favorite question instead is, you know, tell me about an opinion you held really strongly for a long time and when that changed and why, you know, I want to understand if they actually are able to open their mind and look beyond some firmly held opinion.
Toran Billups - 24:32 - In fact, I was so obsessed with this interview question you guys probably remember from kind of the, the episode that didn't make it, but actually had a whole episode. I tried to convince these guys to record with me on opinions where we simply talked about, you know, opinions that are strongly held. Or sorry, loosely held and we never really got around to recording that and getting it out the door. But that's one of my favorite questions because you learn a lot about someone. I literally have had somebody in interview tell me I don't have any, I've never changed my mind on anything and I was just like, oh Jeez. Like we're talking about sometimes about red flags. Yeah, it was a little scary to hear that. So, but I think those are the things I look for. Um, like you, like you, Kris, I actually look for composition of this person onto the team or in the organization. I'm really not looking for as much as I love you and Brandon. I'm not, I don't want to hire if you guys are on my team, I don't want another Brandon and another Kris. We don't need another Brandon or another Kris. We probably need somebody else and I need to understand what that is. Well before I understand the outcome of that interview.
Toran Billups - 25:32 - So. And another one I, I, I tried to do is just to let people know, like if we're going to do any type of technical discussion often, you know, especially like the interview I had where I was kind of coding in Python for the first time, you want to let them feel comfortable and feel like if they make a mistake early on, it's very critical how you handle that mistake. You definitely don't want to say nothing because they know, you know what that's like to make a mistake in an interview. You're going to blow that up in your head and it's probably going to boil down to not a great interview. So those are the pro tips I had, but uh, before we dive into some big wins. Kris, did you have anything else to wrap this up, man?
Kris Van Houten - 26:08 - Oh, or was I supposed to have something to pray for this? I don't know.
Toran Billups - 26:11 - Probably not. What about a big wins you got any big wins for the week?
Kris Van Houten - 26:16 - Yeah. So actually my big one this week is a little bit different and that I guess my big one is my wife. Um, and you know, one thing I've just been really seeing in her over the last week and you know, even last week as we were recording a, she was meeting with a lady in our neighborhood who we've recently just become really close with her and her family and, you know, found out that, you know, she's going through a rough time and my wife's just been able to reach out to her and just be a council and be a good friend and just, you know, hang out with her and encourage her in a number of different ways and it's this really cool seeing, um, my wife take on those people, those people are going through those scenarios and just love on them constantly. And that's something that she's always just been so great. And so I guess my big win is convincing her to marry me because this is really cool to, to, uh, to uh, you know, have her as a part of my life to see all the crazy awesome stuff that she does for people. So that's my man.
Toran Billups - 27:17 - Well, I got, I'm feeling a little peer pressure, but my wife is actually on my heart right now as well. Uh, she's, she's kind of taking on a big role this year in, in our, in the homeschool community that she's involved with and I just see her constant dedication to, you know, understanding the material and learning it just in time. A lot of the things in a funny enough that we talk about on this show. She's just living it and the other maybe a couple of weeks ago she has surprised me I guess by binge listening to our podcasts and just love the whole show. And so she's, she's our biggest fan and I thought that was just so special that she went out of her way to her very busy schedule of school and things starting soon to listen to the whole show and just really get involved. They're wrapped up in what I'm excited about right now. And so that was just kinda really cool. So big win is uh, so far no pressure Brandon, but the why. So Brandon, any big wins to note?
Brandon Williams - 28:15 - I think I kind of had a big win with my wife last week when I was talking about the training that I did in the homeschooling and just seeing her kind of share some of that so I won't repeat that one. But, uh, I, you know, my wife is pretty awesome. Um, no, actually the big one this week is just the quality of people that I work with. It's really cool to see a whole company where we all share the same mission and we're, we all believed that everybody's doing their best to help the company as a whole achieve that mission. Um, and through that, you know, we actually developed some friendships and I'm in and out of work. It's just really cool that, um, we have those, those deep relationships. So yeah, just a company that really promotes a healthy culture where we can, we're all in that same mission together. So
Toran Billups - 29:15 - that's pretty great coworker, man, at the end of the day, that's all you got to work, right. So that's awesome. Well guys, uh, I've had a blast today and I hope to catch up with you guys more next week