This week we talk about retention and how companies can keep people in this industry as people are seemingly transient in their jobs. We discuss about some reasons that people might choose to move on in their career. We cover some signs that can help you know when it's time to look for a new job and how good leadership has a large impact on retaining top talent and a couple of ways that leaders can influence people to grow in their career at the company.
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Toran Billups - 00:04 - You're listening to Developing Fatigue. I'm Toran today. I'll be joined by my two cohosts, Kris Van Houten and Brandon Williamss. And today on the show we're going to talk retention. Kris, what's the definition of retention? I want to know what this is
Kris Van Houten - 00:19 - I am. I am this shows glossary apparently. Uh, yes. So oftentimes when you work at a company you have thoughts of leaving a as I think, yeah, it is hard to believe, but sometimes you decide that maybe you should leave your gig for something else because perhaps you think that the grass is greener on the other side. Um, or maybe it really is. Who knows? Uh, so yeah, retention is the area that we talk about when we're talking about how do we actually keep employees from leaving companies or how do we keep maybe teammates that we work with from leaving the company or how do we talk ourselves into not leaving a company when the going gets rough. So, uh, so yeah, that's what we mean. What we mean when we're talking about retention. So I wasn't sure if you guys want it to maybe opened up by, by sharing a story, maybe a short story about what we're, about a time when maybe you leave, you left the company and what was it that caused you to do so.
Brandon Williams - 01:19 - I've got a story about one of my first gigs was working on a mainframe system and I'm a little over a year in. I realized if I stay here, I'm not employable anywhere else in town and I'm going to continue to increase in pay and then at some point I'm going to get stuck or feel stuck because I'm going to make so much money and I, if I were to not like it or want to move, I couldn't for that same amount of pay. So I actually in that scenario made the transition, um, and actually took less money for a job where I was using a more modern language that was not on a mainframe and would make me more employable in town. So there were.
Kris Van Houten - 02:10 - So for you it was, you were kind of locked into the tech stack that was kind of aging out. And so
Brandon Williams - 02:16 - yeah, absolutely. So that's, that's one scenario where, um, where it was really hard for them because, you know, I got called in to my leader's office and they said, you know, what can, what can we do to keep it here? You're doing really good work. I'm like, thank you. But um, I just, I want to do something that's a more modern. So
Toran Billups - 02:40 - that was long before cobol, hourly rates for like $800 an hour. You're like, man, we've only had stayed in that room.
Brandon Williams - 02:47 - Exactly. Exactly. I'm like, man, that could be retired now.
Kris Van Houten - 02:52 - So what about your journey to get to a story about maybe a time you left the company and what was the reasoning behind that?
Toran Billups - 02:59 - Real talk, Kris, for this.
Kris Van Houten - 03:01 - Go for it. Do it
Toran Billups - 03:04 - one time. Not all that long ago, someone in a review told me torn, we're going to do a zero percent raise this year. And I thought in this market just like crazy. So I sent him a email the next day and quit. And that really happened. So that was a good time. He was pretty upset. I remember talking to him that next day, he was like, this is about yesterday. I was like, yes, it was. So I know a lot of folks don't really talk about this, but we should talk about it a little bit that, you know, when you're younger, especially, you know, making, making a move every year can get you some, some big cash and I think this is really from a retention standpoint, companies need to get in front of this, you know, before even the really the 10 month mark even before maybe in the nine month mark and if someone is either putting in the work or learning and catching up, they should be, they should be paid for it
Toran Billups - 04:05 - and if they're, if they're not, well you're not going to retain them. And I can remember when I was younger, some of the big jumps I made between jobs either every year or every 18 months. I mean these were no small feat. These were 20, $25,000. Sometimes I get a sign on bonus when I come somewhere else, so companies really need to take care of the junior programmers who are the ones that you want to keep. So my advice to companies trying to do retention, right, is real talk. It's about money.
Brandon Williams - 04:34 - It is just making sure that you recognize them when the time is right, not just like you said, at their yearly review. So if six months in they're just absolutely crushing it and they took it to a next level, recognize them, given them that promotion, give them that race. So
Kris Van Houten - 04:52 - yeah, I think, you know, I've heard and read many places. That's like the number one way if you're wanting to make more money as a developer is to go get another job just because that's the hands down. Best Way to get a large jump in pay immediately instead of getting those like little small, like we'll, we'll give you another $2,000 a year. How's that sound? Um, and so yeah, I mean that's, it is legitimately something that, that can net you some, uh, a larger income. You know, my, my story kind of rides the coattails of what you were just saying Toran because my first job as a website designer, like I was making so little money that my wife and I, like we were on food stamps, we were on government assistance and so I was like, and even with that, we were not making enough to pay our rents on our little tiny apartment in Fairfield, Ohio. And when I sought out to find another job, it was strictly to get my family off, government assistance is so that I could, like for me it was, it was a thing of pride. Like I don't want to have to rely on somebody else to make ends meet for me.
Kris Van Houten - 05:52 - Uh, so uh, when I went out to get that job like that, that was what I was seeking and so, and I told them like, if you're going to hire me, I want to make this much money. And it took me awhile to convince to God actually do it, but got like a 40% raise doing that. And so like, that was huge for me.
Toran Billups - 06:07 - Yeah. I think one of the counterpoints to this, the people always throw out is like, well, if I just don't give him a raise, then essentially they're doing more work. I'm getting more value from them, but the truth is that never happens. Right. As you mentioned, the market is the way it is. They're going to go get another job and then look at the actual cost of that turnover. You get a junior person in, you invest a lot of mentoring into them. They really learn your tech stack. They're actually really productive day to day. Suddenly at 12 months they roll out. You start over. Yep. You're literally taking a huge drop in velocity. I'm seeing this now at work has a lot of folks have left and so I'm in that moment where there's a lot of mentoring happening and it's great. Great people have come in, but you got to be straight up that the first 90 days of someone who doesn't know the tech, the company that business, that's gonna, that's gonna be a very slow moment for any feature work. It's just going to take a lot from the team and the team collectively gets very involved in that mentoring process. So I think companies that are trying to cheap out, they ought to know better, but if they don't, you know, maybe they'll listen to our podcast and find out.
Toran Billups - 07:10 - But what about like I was thinking beyond money because at some point you do kinda hit a certain threshold where you look around. Like for example, one of the things I'm struggling with now is, you know, all the great talent has actually left and if you're a junior person, especially one thing that I always think about when kind of my Brandon was talking about working on the mainframe isn't really attractive and he'd like to be able to do some other kind of tech stack. What about other great engineers? Like does it make a difference? Who's on your team? Have you ever thought about leaving? But then you were like, Nah, but Toran's on this team can't leave. That was a joke.
Kris Van Houten - 07:46 - No, I, I can definitely speak to that because, you know, there's been a couple of jobs I've had and even the one where I'm at right now where the people that I work with definitely make the job more enjoyable. Um, and I've worked at those companies where the people I worked with make the job more miserable and so I, I don't think that's something that you should discount whatsoever because, you know, I've had so much more. I thought about leaving my current gig and I'm like, oh, but I won't get to talk to Nathan as much as anymore. I won't get to talk to Theresa or Ken or you know, any, any of the guys that, that I had the privilege to work with, you know, as much as you say you're going to keep in contact and we'll be friends forever on Facebook or whatever. Like it's, it's, that's not how it works out. So, uh, yeah, no, I definitely think that the people you work with matter when it comes to retention. So that goes back into hiring the right people in the first place. What do you think, Brandon? What are your thoughts on that?
Brandon Williams - 08:38 - Yeah, I mean, I'm the last move I made, I was working with some really top notch people I was being poured into and for much of my career thus far it felt like I was always. I'm always chasing somebody, like I'm always trying to catch up to where everybody else's and always working with people that are a level two levels, three levels, 10 levels above me. And so I'm just trying to train to just keep up with them and keep and keep myself from drowning. Um, and so that has always been, um, that's always been really, really fun. But I guess as I've gotten a little bit older, I'm realizing, oh, I'm becoming one of those guys now that's, you know, a level two levels, three levels ahead of these other people. And so now they're trying to play of
Toran Billups - 09:28 - the neck beard
Brandon Williams - 09:29 - Yeah, the neck beard. Right now, now they're, they're trying to play catch up to me. And so it's, it's been a rear, a little bit of a unique reversal of roles. And um, you know, just in the last couple months I've had two people say, wow, you do that really faster, how did you know how to do that? And it's just like, don't, don't, you know how to do that. Like I just, I guess I just assumed that everybody is still so far ahead of me that I'm trying to catch up to them. Um, and so, um, yeah, just, I, I'm always looking for those people that can stretch me and helped me grow in areas where I'm weak so that, that is, that's huge for me is just working with really top notch people. So
Kris Van Houten - 10:10 - I think about it as if I, if I can try not to botch the statement, but I think about like always pursued to be the greatest mind of the room, but never be the greatest mind in the room. Uh, you know, always surround yourself with people that are, that you can learn from that definitely surpassed you in some way so that you can kind of absorbed from them, their experience, their knowledge of things that they've acquired over their own careers. So no, I think that's plenty of good stuff there. Um so Toran. You asked a question about has it ever been the case where it was people that kind of kept you at a company and what role that played, but I think there's a flip side of this coin where we talk about is there a situation where people are the reason that you, uh, that you leave a company? So I wasn't sure if you had anything to say in regards to that.
Toran Billups - 10:58 - Yeah. When is it time to move on?
Kris Van Houten - 11:00 - Yeah, when is the time to move on.
Toran Billups - 11:02 - yeah. Sometimes. I mean we, we kind of got serious about money and things like that, but in truth, money only keeps you so long. Right? I was using that point mainly to talk about retention of junior folks and make sure they don't leave there. They're gonna get paid either way, so just do the right thing. But sometimes you do encounter toxic leadership. And this is, this is one of the struggles I'm facing right now, if I'm honest about it. So a while back, my, my, I'll call them like the Dream Team boss. He was like the boss, wherever you are, wherever you're thinking about what your boss looks like, this, this person is just the greatest leader you've ever experienced. They lift you up all the time. You feel better every time you interact with them. That was, that was this guy, and Gosh, he was. He was amazing man. Um, you know, more, more than just a mentor. All those good things. He was just a really great guy and unfortunately he left and that left left me in a rough spot.
Toran Billups - 12:02 - Um just because I'm starting to notice different characteristics in, you know, my current manager that are hard to look at sometimes when you just had the dream boss, you know, and one of the things I think about is, you know, when this person, you know, it's time to move on when this person is very misaligned, like their value system and your value system don't match. For example, the way we think about growing and investing in people on our team is very different. I'm someone who's just very interested in and pouring all of myself into the junior people, growing those people because truthfully, we're struggling to retain people and so I keep telling the team, look, if we can't retain people, we better learn how to grow them. And so that's just my philosophy, but I'm sensing a very different philosophy, so philosophy from my current manager, so that's one of the struggles ultra also noticing there's a lot of cultural differences between people who grow up or grew up in different parts of the US or different parts of the world.
Toran Billups - 13:04 - And this manager is more of an east coast person. I mean, that's where my current company is based out of. And so conversations there are very direct. People don't take things very personal. Um, I have someone that's, that kind of coaching me through this that says like Toran, you're from the Midwest, right? I was like, yeah. He's like, you take a lot of things personal, right? I was like, isn't my whole life? He's like, yeah, these, these folks on the east coast that are running teams, they don't care about that stuff. You're gonna, you're gonna have to either get through that, are going to have to work somehow, find a way to work with people who are more direct than you are. And I think that's one big difference. And finally I think the last straw is when there's some broken trust and so I want to share a little story about how some trust was broken recently that I think is a reason to eventually move on. So the story goes, someone left and my new boss approached me with, hey, uh, we need a new programmer to join the team and you know, we don't have any open recs right now, so we'd like to pull from existing junior talent.
Toran Billups - 14:05 - Do you have a junior developer in mind? And I gave this junior developer name out and they said, ah, you know, his, his team's actually lost somebody as well, so we can't let you have him. And I said, okay, so it must not be anybody else. Right. And he said, actually, there's somebody who just graduated, you know, this person would be really great. Uh, she's very hungry and very passionate, you know, aptitude is solid. What do you think? And I was like, well, you know, this person sounds, you know, based on this description and things, it didn't sound like they had any real hands on experience. So I just said if I want to work with this person, we're going to do this my way, and I was just being back to like, are so good they can't ignore you. I was basically making some demands and I said, we're going to do this. My way is going to be fulltime pairing because that's what this is gonna require, this person is going to need my full time dedication. And he was like, okay, yeah, a couple of weeks go by and I'm sorry if this story is already predictable and you know where I'm going, but let's just go with it. Couple of weeks, a couple weeks go by and uh, we're getting, we're getting ready to get into these, these sprints where are going to actually start pairing.
Toran Billups - 15:05 - And I have this indication in the back of my head that he doesn't the word pair programming, although we use it and we talk about it on these shows. I don't know if he knows what I mean when I say full time pairing, so I go out to dinner with him in person and I say, Hey, remember when I said I do this my way? And I said the word pair programming. He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, do you know what that means? Because when I'm talking about here is a real commitment, a big commitment for me, but also the team to help mentor and grow this person. And he's like, so I could tell he didn't really like what I was saying at this moment and I was just like, but you told me two weeks ago that this is cool. And so effectively in that conversation I negotiated down from what I originally got granted, if you want to call it that too. Okay, we can do this for a month. We'll do this for two sprints and then she'll be off on her own. And I was like, hm. So I was pretty unhappy with that, but he's the boss so I go with it and we're getting ready to start our sprint this week actually.
Toran Billups - 16:04 - And I'm out on some vacation and I come back and I find out from my junior developer our, we're not, we're not allowed to pair program anymore. And I was like, we didn't even get started. And so I, I, I hit up my new boss one-on-one and I was like, hey, we now have a little talk about this. And so we have a little chat and he goes, I just think it's more effective. You're going to be more efficient if you're off doing your thing. And she's off doing her thing. And I just thought in my head, how would he know what's more efficient? He's not a programmer. And so I put that out to the side. Right? But ultimately what I hope this story brought out, at least for anybody listening, if they're not bored to tears already, is, you know, for me it was that he, he gave me his word, you know, and I basically said I was going to pour myself into this person and grow them. And then slowly over about a month, a month and a half, that eroded and all of that trust eroded. And now here I am, left thinking how can I have a crucial conversation with about anything because I actually just don't believe him anymore
Toran Billups - 17:04 - and I feel like once your trust is completely broken like this, is there anything but moving on and I just want to caveat here at the end, this is like a really somber moment, but I just want to jump in at the end if you know, if you're ever in this situation. The one piece of advice that the very senior people told me when I was younger, as you know what this sounds like a bad situation. Maybe you can't get out of it. Maybe the best decision is, is finding another job. Just make sure when you do that, whenever it is, make sure that you're running to something and that you're not running from somebody or something. So gosh, where do we go from here?
Kris Van Houten - 17:42 - Let me show you. I can turn this ship around a little bit. We're all starting to drink heavily on the podcast right now. Well, I think. Okay. So we've definitely covered, you know, what's, why we move, why we stay at certain companies. But I wasn't sure if maybe you guys had made like some tips for either, uh, either for yourselves or for a, maybe employers who might be listening. I don't know if they do, but you know, that watches, hopefully not your employer Toran. I don't know. But, uh, but, uh, so yeah, what are some things that both employers and maybe us as the employees should take into consideration as we're having these, these trying times? These times are definitely, that definitely causes thoughts to arise. Uh, should I leave? Is now the time to leave? Um, I have a couple of things. I wasn't sure if you guys had anything that you, that came here and you gotta
Toran Billups - 18:42 - you haven't talked too much, you need to go let it out.
Kris Van Houten - 18:45 - Always ranting. So let's hear somebody like Toran said I obviously think that trust is, is vitally important and as I was kinda thinking through, you know, preparing for tonight's episode, uh, something that definitely came to mind for me, especially over the last few months with my experience at work is I think that retaining employees at minimum requires two things. And I say at minimum, very intentionally because there's definitely other things, uh, you know, what keeps an employee of a company is not going to be what keeps a different employee at that same company because they all value something differently. There are different people, different personalities, different things that they find important or that they emphasize in their lives. And so at minimum it requires two things for me. And I think that's a managers who listened to the needs of their employees and Toran, I think even what you're saying, it shows that there's a lack of that going on. Um, or at least maybe he's listening, but not comprehending what you're saying.
Kris Van Houten - 19:44 - Uh, and so I think there's a need for managers to listen and perhaps even ask employees, what do you need that you don't have? How can I serve you? What, what do you need that you're wanting to learn? Or what materials are you, are you in need of? But also on the flip side of that, there's an obligation on our behalf to communicate openly and honestly with our bosses, uh, what those needs might be. Because like I said, they're going to be different for everybody and so, um, you know, I'll be completely honest and say that I was wrestling in the same area over the last year months because work's been a little chaotic and was wrestling with whether or not I should lead the company that I'm currently at, but I was able to have some of those conversations with my bosses and be like, I'm wrestling here, here and here. And thankfully, like I had, I have a boss who like within a few minutes I was getting another call from another manager who was higher up the chain who is like, hey, let's chat now.
Kris Van Houten - 20:44 - And I'm very thankful that I have a boss who responds that quickly. And so, uh, you know, those two things are, are things that I think are definitely need to be taken into consideration. You know, because it's a two way street. You're, your manager needs to be able to listen to you. And you also need to be able to communicate with your manager what you need. So
Toran Billups - 21:02 - And sometimes like the management, you know, the manager to employee relationship is just a mismatch, like it just isn't working. I think one of the things I was hoping Brandon could clarify for us, because I, I use this word a lot when I talk about great leaders, but I don't think I know what it means. And so the, the word I'm thinking of a servant leader, servant leadership. And I think in my experience the managers that serve me best I believe are practicing some flavor of servant leadership. So Brandon, what is this buzzword all about?
Brandon Williams - 21:33 - I mean I'm going to reiterate a couple of the things that Kris just said. I think the major difference between what he said and what I, what I have written here is the leaders have strong expectations for you and your leader has that. But then we also have that among ourselves. Like I expect you guys as my teammates to live to a certain standard. Like we have these standards for our team and we're all committing to that and we're all going to achieve the best quality that we possibly can. But then your a leader jumps in there and says, what do you need in order to keep that standard? What do you need in order to get the job done and how can I help you get what you need and make sure that you can stay focused on that task. So just basically being a bulldozer ahead of you. Just saying I will, I will clear the way so you can get the work done.
Brandon Williams - 22:29 - Um, I guess that's then just caring about the person as a whole, realizing that we are more than just a worker bees that come in, sit in our cube, crank out code and go home realizing that, um, I have a really awesome leadership that says, you know, if you're, if you're struggling, just let us know. So, so that we can come around you and help you. Because if you're distracted at home, you're going to be distracted at work. If you're a, you know, like, like Kris, if you're, if you're on food stamps when you come into work, all you're thinking about is what, how am I going to take care of my family tonight? What are we gonna have for dinner? Um, how are we going to pay our water bill? You know, just let your leadership know that um, if your kid's in the hospital, say, Hey, my kid's in the hospital, he'll, um, are there, is going to be like, okay, go, just get out of here, go be with your kid. And I'm just realizing that there is more than just work in life. So
Toran Billups - 23:32 - yeah. And, and the conversations I've had with this, this really awesome boss I mentioned earlier in the show that I missed this guy so much some days you, is that he, he could somehow instill this desire inside me to just want to be a much stronger technician and a better human being all at the same time. I would come out of his office thinking just like, wow, he's lifted me up and inspired me so much, but I didn't feel any pressure as, as part of that conversation. I think the leaders that, that connect well with me definitely understand like what you're saying, Brandon, the very human side of, of programming or the technician and also have a way to kind of coach you. I think a big part of this this year, his reading of course was you guys getting on the show and doing a lot more reading, but also my boss from months back, my favorite boss of all time, that guy was always after me, um, but not in like a pressure negative way, but like I wanted to read to like impress him or something. I don't know what it was, but like I wanted to make him proud.
Toran Billups - 24:32 - It's almost like a maybe mother, father figure thing where I, you know, as a professional, we don't always have someone who's saying like, Oh, good job, you know, patting you on the back. But this guy was my biggest cheerleader and that was such a great thing to have. And I think if you don't have that at work, you're going to go seek it out eventually, you know, somewhere that adoration or praise. So
Kris Van Houten - 24:53 - yeah, I think one thing I'd like to stay encouraged just ourselves and also listener out there in the ether is that, you know, it's easy to go through a, a spell of like a few weeks or perhaps even a few months and that's really rough to where it starts to poison the water as it were in your head to rethink like, I just need to get out of this company. I just need to get away and go find something else. And I would encourage you to second guess that thought if you could, uh, you know, and the reason being is that, you know, is there a market for developers right now? Definitely. Could you walk out of that company and maybe go get another job, maybe get that little bit of a bump in pay. Likely, yeah. Um, well the grass is greener on the other side of that company or on the other side of that, of that hill. Probably not, you're, you're going to have problems everywhere he goes.
Kris Van Houten - 25:51 - You're going to have challenges everywhere you go. But I think the extra part of that is like, will you have the grit and will you have a grown, that bit of endurance that you would have had had you stuck with that other company a had you, had you stuck through that little rough spot and gotten through to the other side. You would not have that experience if you just up and left because you had a fit one day. Um, and so I want you to take that into consideration. But I will say to supplement that, you know, there is an exception and kind of Toran what you were talking about. Like if the environment is genuinely toxic, that is, that is licensed to get up and leave. Because honestly, like I, I'm a father, I have kids and I can't afford to get burnt out financially. You know, I can't afford to be like, well I got burnt out and stressed out with work and you know, now I'm, I just, I can't function right now. I can't afford to have that happen. And so that would be a characteristic of a toxic environment where I'm just stressed out all the time.
Kris Van Houten - 26:50 - And which plays into my productivity basically removes my productivity and so I just want to say that to both encourage and give some instruction to, to listeners who may be going through the same battle for themselves right now, and just encourage you to try to stick it out if, if you believe that you can't. So
Toran Billups - 27:09 - yeah, and I have a sounding board. You know, I talked to Chris and Brandon all the time about things like this and I think Chris is right on that. Your first table flip, you know, don't walk out that day, come back, set the, set the table up, get your mind right. And, but at the same time, like you said, Kris, don't be ignorant that if life is miserable, you're anxious or you just feel horrible because of the toxic environment. Eventually, you know, get curious about what else might be out there because it's a risk certainly, but maybe it is actually a step in the right direction. You won't know until you try. So. But I know how to get us moving in the right direction. Kris, that's some big wins. So you and I, I got to jump in because mine was, was this week, it took some time off and I did some volunteering with a kind of a volunteer organization for young programmers. So I want to say my big win was working with this organization called Youth Code and I got to teach, I think it was about ten seventh, like fifth to seventh grade kids web programming.
Kris Van Houten - 28:50 - Is this your way to try to recruit more people to come work with your company like, Hey, I know seventh grade, but come on over
Toran Billups - 28:55 - too early Kris.
Kris Van Houten - 28:57 - I do think that is a cool point that you make but not necessarily a cool point, but a valid point where it's like a lot of kids growing up right now only have access to tablets and like that's how I, how so much of their or phones and that's so much of their computing experienced or what they don't know. What is a file structure look like? Like just think like there are some kids don't even know what that is. And so it's like there's this, there's a whole concept of how computing works. It has to be grasped that they'd never seen before that we grew up on. Like, oh, like there's four files and there's folders and there's your drive. And Yeah. So I guess I'll share my big wins since I'm already talking a lot. So, um, my big one is we had reviews last week and I got a, I got a decent promotion so, uh, we will, that's pretty cool. It's actually unexpected odd that I get moved up to a different level as a developer. I'll just, the way that our company is structured so I wasn't expecting us. So it's actually always surprised when, when that came through. So I guess that's my short and sweet big win for, for this week.
Toran Billups - 29:59 - What credits? I got it before you get into Brandon, I got give you mad props for that because one of the, one of the things I failed to say in our earlier episodes when I was a, you know, praising Brandon for being the hardest working programmer is that Chris is easily the most productive guy. And so I think this shows in this promotion because people, you know, your reputation that you talked about, you know, weeks and months ago now is what people are standing on a saying, Kris is the guy and this promotion I think is just one signal that you should be really proud of man. Like I'm I'm ecstatic about it. So while he's blushing, Brandon, I know you had a big week. So how is, what was your big win man?
Brandon Williams - 30:38 - Hey, first of all, Kris. Well done. That's pretty awesome man.
Kris Van Houten - 30:41 - Thanks guys. Don't take off and fell. Sorry.
Brandon Williams - 30:47 - Alright, so my big win was a. I just passed my AWS certification and now I am a AWS certified sys ops administrator.
Kris Van Houten - 30:59 - Awesome man.
Toran Billups - 30:59 - So that was awesome dude.
Brandon Williams - 31:01 - That was a, that was a big deal. So I'm pretty excited about that man.
Kris Van Houten - 31:06 - So now you know all things. Amazon.
Brandon Williams - 31:08 - I know some things. Amazon,
Kris Van Houten - 31:12 - I can order you a book in three clicks or less.
Brandon Williams - 31:15 - There is a lot of surface area there.
Toran Billups - 31:19 - Yeah. Last time I opened up the AWS tools, I think I had a stroke. I was just like, nope,
Brandon Williams - 31:25 - you just keep scrolling, keep scrolling.
Kris Van Houten - 31:29 - I'll just go to Heroku instead.
Toran Billups - 31:32 - All right guys. Well this has been fun. Thanks for letting me get on the soapbox today and rant a little bit. I feel much better. I'm sure you guys do catch you all next week then
Kris Van Houten - 31:41 - take care guys
Brandon Williams - 31:42 - Later